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#69710 - 10/06/05 10:39 AM Bhagavan tattva
anAdi Offline
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Registered: 03/16/05
Posts: 409
Loc: Germany
Dear bhakta of God,
Shiva appeared from the front head of BrahmA, but this doesn’t mean that BrahmA is the source of Shiva. Similarly the two hairs of ViSNu are not the source of Krishna and Balarama.
BrahmA, the first living being in this universe addressing to kRSNa said

nArAyaNas tvaM na hi sarva-dehinAm
AtmAsy adhIzAkhila-loka-sAkSI
nArAyaNo 'NgaM nara-bhU-jalAyanAtA
tac cApi satyaM na tavaiva mAyA

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.14.14)

Are You not the original NArAyaNa, O supreme controller, since You are the Soul of every embodied being and the eternal witness of all created realms? Indeed, Lord NArAyaNa is Your expansion (nArAyaNo 'NgaM), and He is called NArAyaNa because He is the generating source of the primeval water of the universe (nara-bhU-jalAyanAtA). He is real, not a product of Your illusory MAyA (tac cApi satyaM na tavaiva mAyA).

And don’t think that Brahma Samhita is a forgery of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
In this connection there is a lot of evidence that Sri Krishna is the Original Bhagavan svayaM as Srila Jiva Gosvami revealed in his commentary to the verse

IzvaraH paramaH kRSNa
sac-cid-Ananda-vigrahaH
anAdir Adir govindaH
sarva-kAraNa-kAraNam


Sri kRSNa is is the Supreme Controller
the embodiment of eternity, knowledge and bliss.
He is Govinda that has no beginning or origin,
He is the source of everything and the cause of all causes.

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#69711 - 10/06/05 02:09 PM Re: Bhagavan tattva [Re: anAdi]
Sudarshan Rangaswamy Offline
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Registered: 09/02/05
Posts: 341
Dear Vaishnavas,

What is this whole dispute over? Sriman Narayanan is Krishna and Krishna is Sriman Narayanan....dont politicize him for your pet agendas:) Sarvam Krishna mayam - everything is Krishna, and he is the supreme and darling of all, in whatever way you look at him.
_________________________
SrImAn venkatanAthAryaH kavitArkika kesarI | vedAntAcArya-varyo me sannidhattAm sadA hRdi ||

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#69712 - 10/06/05 03:15 PM Re: Bhagavan tattva [Re: anAdi]
Bhakta of God Offline
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Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 330
Loc: Italy,Europe
Dear AnAdi,
pranamas.
From what I seen at http://www.srimadbhagavatam.com/10/14/14/en you have used the Prabhupada version.
Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.14.14 is:
nArAyaNas tvaM na hi sarva-dehinAm
AtmAsy adhIzAkhila-loka-sAkSI
nArAyaNo 'NgaM nara-bhU-jalAyanAtA
tac cApi satyaM na tavaiva mAyA

Prabhupada translate in the following way:
SYNONYMS

nārāyaṇaḥ — the Supreme Lord Nārāyaṇa; tvam — You; na — not; hi — whether; sarva — of all; dehinām — embodied living beings; ātmā — the Supersoul; asi — You are; adhīśa — O supreme controller; akhila — of all; loka — planets; sākṣī — the witness; nārāyaṇaḥ — Lord Śrī Nārāyaṇa; ańgam — the expanded plenary portion; nara — from the Supreme Personality; bhū — originating; jala — of the water; ayanāt — because of being the manifesting source; tat — that (expansion); ca — and; api — indeed; satyam — true; na — not; tava — Your; eva — at all; māyā — illusory energy.

Then he translate as you wrote:
Are You not the original Nārāyaṇa, O supreme controller, since You are the Soul of every embodied being and the eternal witness of all created realms? Indeed, Lord Nārāyaṇa is Your expansion, and He is called Nārāyaṇa because He is the generating source of the primeval water of the universe. He is real, not a product of Your illusory Māyā.

Then he write the following purport:
In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Ādi-līlā, Chapter Two, Text 30, Śrīla Prabhupāda comments on this verse as follows: "This statement was spoken by Lord Brahmā in his prayers to Lord Kṛṣṇa after the Lord defeated him by displaying His mystic powers. Brahmā had tried to test Lord Kṛṣṇa to see if He was really the Supreme Personality of Godhead playing as a cowherd boy. Brahmā stole all the other boys and their cows from the pasturing grounds, but when he returned to the pastures he saw that all the boys and cows were still there, for Lord Kṛṣṇa had created them all again. When Brahmā saw this mystic power of Lord Kṛṣṇa, he admitted defeat and offered prayers to the Lord, addressing Him as the proprietor and seer of everything in the creation and as the Supersoul who is within each and every living entity and is dear to all. Lord Kṛṣṇa is Nārāyaṇa, the father of Brahmā, because Lord Kṛṣṇa's plenary expansion Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, after placing Himself on the Garbha Ocean, created Brahmā from His own body. Mahā-Viṣṇu in the Causal Ocean and Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, the Supersoul in everyone's heart, are also transcendental expansions of the Supreme Truth."

In his commentary on this verse, Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī has elaborately explained the expansion of the Viṣṇu, or Nārāyaṇa, incarnations from the original form of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. The essence is that although Lord Brahmā was born from Lord Nārāyaṇa, Brahmā now understands that Nārāyaṇa is Himself a mere expansion of the original Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa.


About the same verse at http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto10/chapter14.html I found the following translation:
Are You not Nβrβyana the Soul of all living beings? You are the Teacher Within the Heart, the Witness of all Worlds, the Nβrβ-yana: the part [or lead] of God relating to man, that source from which the waters originated - that is what You truly are and not so much Your specific form [mβyβ].

Dear AnAdi,please note that I don't trust to Prabhupada words.He translates in wrong way.
Now read the following words of Pralada Maharaja:
śrī-prahrāda uvāca
śravaṇaḿ kīrtanaḿ viṣṇoḥ
smaraṇaḿ pāda-sevanam
arcanaḿ vandanaḿ dāsyaḿ
sakhyam ātma-nivedanam
iti puḿsārpitā viṣṇau
bhaktiś cen nava-lakṣaṇā
kriyeta bhagavaty addhā
tan manye 'dhītam uttamam

At http://www.srimadbhagavatam.com/7/5/23-24/en I see that Prabhupada write the meaning of the sankrit words in the following way:
SYNONYMS

śrī-prahrādaḥ uvāca — Prahlāda Mahārāja said; śravaṇam — hearing; kīrtanam — chanting; viṣṇoḥ — of Lord Viṣṇu (not anyone else); smaraṇam — remembering; pāda-sevanam — serving the feet; arcanam — offering worship (with ṣoḍaśopacāra, the sixteen kinds of paraphernalia); vandanam — offering prayers; dāsyam — becoming the servant; sakhyam — becoming the best friend; ātma-nivedanam — surrendering everything, whatever one has; iti — thus; puḿsā arpitā — offered by the devotee; viṣṇau — unto Lord Viṣṇu (not to anyone else); bhaktiḥ — devotional service; cet — if; nava-lakṣaṇā — possessing nine different processes; kriyeta — one should perform; bhagavati — unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; addhā — directly or completely; tat — that; manye — I consider; adhītam — learning; uttamam — topmost.

Then he him-self translates:
Prahlāda Mahārāja said: Hearing and chanting about the transcendental holy name, form, qualities, paraphernalia and pastimes of Lord Viṣṇu, remembering them, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, offering the Lord respectful worship with sixteen types of paraphernalia, offering prayers to the Lord, becoming His servant, considering the Lord one's best friend, and surrendering everything unto Him (in other words, serving Him with the body, mind and words) — these nine processes are accepted as pure devotional service. One who has dedicated his life to the service of Kṛṣṇa through these nine methods should be understood to be the most learned person, for he has acquired complete knowledge.

As you can see the name Krishna does't appear in the original sankrit verse.
AnAdi,now look at the following verse:
oḿ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
janmādy asya yato 'nvayād itarataś cārtheṣv abhijρaḥ svarāṭ
tene brahma hṛdā ya ādi-kavaye muhyanti yat sūrayaḥ
tejo-vāri-mṛdāḿ yathā vinimayo yatra tri-sargo 'mṛṣā
dhāmnā svena sadā nirasta-kuhakaḿ satyaḿ paraḿ dhīmahi
(Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.1)

As you can see at http://www.srimadbhagavatam.com/1/1/1/en Prabhupada writes the following:
SYNONYMS

om — O my Lord; namaḥ — offering my obeisances; bhagavate — unto the Personality of Godhead; vāsudevāya — unto Vāsudeva (the son of Vasudeva), or Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the primeval Lord; janma-ādi — creation, sustenance and destruction; asya — of the manifested universes; yataḥ — from whom; anvayāt — directly; itarataḥ — indirectly; ca — and; artheṣu — purposes; abhijρaḥ — fully cognizant; sva-rāṭ — fully independent; tene — imparted; brahma — the Vedic knowledge; hṛdā — consciousness of the heart; yaḥ — one who; ādi-kavaye — unto the original created being; muhyanti — are illusioned; yat — about whom; sūrayaḥ — great sages and demigods; tejaḥ — fire; vāri — water; mṛdām — earth; yathā — as much as; vinimayaḥ — action and reaction; yatra — whereupon; tri-sargaḥ — three modes of creation, creative faculties; amṛṣā — almost factual; dhāmnā — along with all transcendental paraphernalia; svena — self-sufficiently; sadā — always; nirasta — negation by absence; kuhakam — illusion; satyam — truth; param — absolute; dhīmahi — I do meditate upon.

TRANSLATION

O my Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, son of Vasudeva, O all-pervading Personality of Godhead, I offer my respectful obeisances unto You. I meditate upon Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa because He is the Absolute Truth and the primeval cause of all causes of the creation, sustenance and destruction of the manifested universes. He is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations, and He is independent because there is no other cause beyond Him. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge unto the heart of Brahmājī, the original living being. By Him even the great sages and demigods are placed into illusion, as one is bewildered by the illusory representations of water seen in fire, or land seen on water. Only because of Him do the material universes, temporarily manifested by the reactions of the three modes of nature, appear factual, although they are unreal. I therefore meditate upon Him, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, who is eternally existent in the transcendental abode, which is forever free from the illusory representations of the material world. I meditate upon Him, for He is the Absolute Truth.


About Srimad BHagavatam 7.5.23-24,at http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto7/chapter5.html I found the following translation which I consider more correct and without additions:
S'rξ Prahlβda said: 'Hearing, singing, remembering Vishnu, attending to the feet, offering worship and prayers, becoming a servant, being a friend and to surrender one's soul are of all people offering the nine ways making up the bhakti that should be performed unto the Supreme Lord of Vishnu; the complete of that I consider the topmost of learning.'

About Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.1. at http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter1.html I found the following correct translation:
My obeisances unto the personality of Godhead, Vβsudeva, the primeval Lord of the creation, destruction and sustenance of the manifested universe. Directly and indirectly is He, for the purpose of consciousness, the fully independent one imparting the vedic knowledge in the heart of the original created being. About Him even the great sages and demi-gods are illusioned like one can be with a mirage of water to the [fire of the] sun, as through the action and reaction of the modes of material nature He creates the illusion of the factual. Upon Him I meditate who is always self-sufficient and of the transcendental, the negation free from illusion and the Absolute of the truth.

About the words "Om Namo Bhagavata Vasudevaya" this a mantra that sometimes I have recited.
Literally,this mantra means:"Om obeisances to Bhagavan Vasudeva".
AnAdi,please note that Bhagavan and Vasudeva are two names of Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam-The Thousand Names of Vishnu.
About the meaning of Bhagavan.
By http://home.comcast.net/~chinnamma/
563. bhagavAn
a) He Who is worthy of worship.
b) He Who is full of the six attributes
c) He Who knows the origin and the end of all beings.

om bhagavate namah.

a) SrI BhaTTar interprets the nAma asreferring to His being worthy of worship because of His essential nature whichis antagonistic to all defects and which is endowed with all auspiciousqualities. The word bhaga has a special meaning which refers to the sixattributes, but SrI BhaTTar does not use this meaning here to interpret thisnAma, which the other vyAkhyAna kartA-s use. Instead, he gives theinterpretation "He Who is worthy of worship". In amarakOSa vyAkhyAnam,there is a reference to "bhajyata iti bhagah", which seems to fit SrIBhaTTar's interpretation for the current nAma. He uses the reference to the sixattributes in interpreting the next nAma "bhagahA". In support of SrIBhaTTar's interpretation for the current nAma, SrI v.v. rAmAnujan givesreference to AzhvAr aruLicceyal: uyarvaRa uyar nalam uDaiyavan (tiruvAimozhi1.1.1), tIdu il SIr nalam tigazh nAraNan; andam il Adiyam bhagavan (tiruvAimozhi1.3.5).

b) SrI Sa'nkara and other vyAkhyAna kartA-sinterpret the current nAma based on the word bhaga referring to the sixattributes. SrI kRshNa datta bhAradvAj gives the derivation - bhago j~nAnAdishaTkam vidyate niratiSayam yasmin iti bhagavAn - He in whom the six attributes(j~nAna etc.), which are called bhaga-s, are present in perfection and fullnessis called bhagavAn. SrI Sa'nkara gives reference to vishNu purANam supportinghis interpretation:

aiSvaryasya samagrasya vIryasya yaSasah Sriyah|
j~nAna vairAgya yogaScaiva shaNNAm bhaga itI'nganA || (V.P.6.5.74)

"He Who possesses the attributes ofaiSvaryam or Lordship, dharma, fame, wealth, j~nAna and vairAgya in full iscalled bhagavAn". There are differing versions of the Sloka, with dharmasyareplacing vIryasya, "j~nAna vairAgyayoScaiva" replaced by "vairAgyasyAthamokshasya", etc.

SrI rAdhAkRshNa SAstri gives the followingbrief explanation of the six attributes referred to above: - aiSvarya - Thequality of being the Lord of all - He can control and rule over all things atall times, and thus He is the Supreme over all. (na tasya ISe kaScana - tait.AraN. 10.10) - vIrya - The ability to be victorious over any enemy (ugram vIrammahAvishNum) - yaSah - kIrti; Worthy of praise by all without exception (tasyanAma mahad-yaSah - (tait. AraN. 10.1) - SrI - Wealth; He is One Who hasmahAlakshmi always residing as part of Him (Sriyam lakshmIm aupalAm ambikAm gAm)- j~nAna - Because He is the Knower of the past, present, and future and theLord of the three - bhUta bhavya bhavan-nAthah (yah savaj~nah sarvavit yaysj~nAnamayam tapah - muNDako. 1.1.9) - vairAgya - Being unattached to anything (savA ayamAtmA brahma akAma mayah - bRhadA. 4.4.5)

c) SrI Sa'nkara gives an alternateinterpretation as well, also based on another Slokam from SrI vishNu purANam:utpattim pralayam caiva bhUtAnAm Agatim gatim | vetti vidyAm avidyAm ca sa vAcyobhagavAn iti || (V.P. 6.5.78) "He is named bhagavAn who knows the originand the end, the arrival and the exit, of all beings, and also vidyA and avidyA".

564. bhagahA
a) He Who is possessed of auspiciousqualities.
b) He Who gets rid of the wealth etc. from everyone during praLaya. om bhagaghnenamah.

a) As was pointed out in the last para, SrIBhaTTar's interpretation for bhagahA uses the meaning of bhaga referring to thesix attributes, and here he quotes the same vishNu purANam reference that SrISamkara uses for the last nAma (VP 6.5.74). The literal interpretation is "bhagaSabdyAn sa kalyANa guNAn hanti tu gacchati" - He Who goes to (i.e., has)all the six attributes referred to by the term bhaga. The usual meaning for hAis "to kill, to destroy" - e.g., vIrahA. But SrI BhaTTar uses themeaning "hanti - goes" in his interpretation. SrI kRshNa dattabhAradvAj also adopts the same interpretation - bhagam mAhAtmyam jihIte gacchatiprApnoti iti bhagahA.

b) SrI Samkara uses the meaning of hA - tokill, and interprets the nAma as meaning that He is the Remover of all thingssuch as wealth from everyone at the time of pralaya - aiSvaryAdikam samhArasamaye hanti iti bhagahA. SrI satyadevo vAsishTha gives a different elaborationof this idea - bhaga represents the vastness of things, and hA represents thecontraction of this vastness. Thus He is called bhaga-hA because He reduces thevastness of His creation by contracting it all into Himself at the time ofpralaya. svAmi cinmayAnanda points out that in this sense, it is not"destruction" of things, but an absorption of things back into Himselfthat initially came from Him. The dharma cakram writer observes that theimpermanence of things like wealth, fame, etc. is what is being imparted to ushere, and the more we understand this and remove our attachment to these, thecloser we would have understood the significance of this nAma.


Please note that Sri Bhattar was one who wrote a commentary to Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam.Even Sri Shankara (the founder of Advaita Vedanta/Mayavada school) write a commentary to Sri Vishnu Sahasranamam.

About the meaning of Vasudeva.By http://home.comcast.net/~chinnamma/
700. vAsu-devah -

a) He Who pervades and sports.
b) The Son of vasudeva.
c) The presiding Deity of the well-known 12-lettered vAsu-deva mantra.
d) The Deity Who is adored by His devotees.
e) He Who lives in everything and Who keeps them moving around.

Om vAsudevAya namah.

This nAma occurred earlier asnAma 334 (Slokam 36), and will occur again as nAma 714 (Slokam 76). The meaninggiven for this nAma under Slokam 36 was "He Who pervades and sports". Please refer to the write-up under Slokam 36 for the many references. SrIBhaTTar points out under nAma 334, that this nAma, like the nArAyaNa nAma, is aguhya mantram, and its meaning should be properly learnt from a qualified AcArya. I am sharing what little I understand based on what is written in the differentvyAkhyAna-s.

a) For nAma 334, SrI BhaTTar'sinterpretation was that bhagavAn is called vAsu-deva because He is vAsu (One inwhom everything lives like in a mother, and One who envelopes and protectseverything like a bird with its wings), and He is a deva (One Who sports, or hasthis process of pervasion, permeation, creation, protection, destruction, etc.,as a part of His leelA). So He is both a vAsu and a deva, and so He iscalled vAsu-devah.

For this nAma in Slokam 36, SrISamkara also derives the meaning based on the combination of the words vAsu anddeva, but he suggests that in addition to His divine play in permeatingeverything and being the dwelling place for everything, His play includes Hiscovering everything with His mAyA (vasati - AcchAdayati - covers, conceals,sheaths, envelops, etc. - vasati, vAsayati, AcchAdayati vA sarvam itivAsuh). For the nAma in Slokam 76, he unequivocally associatesHis play (being a deva) with enveloping the whole universe (vAsu) with His mAyA- jagat AchchAdayati mAyayA iti vAsuh sa eva deva iti vAsu-devah. The term 'mAyA' in the advaita system is interpreted as"illusion", whereas in the viSishTAdvaitic system it refers to thewonderful power of ISvara, whose effects are very real.

b) For the current occurrenceof the nAma, both SrI Samkara and SrI BhaTTar gives the explanation that He iscalled vAsu-deva because He is the son of vasudeva (vasudevasya apatyamvAsu-devah). SrI kRshNa datta bhAradvAj gives the support fromSrImad bhAgavatam, where bhagavAn declares that He is called vAsu-deva becauseHe was born as the son of vasu-deva in the yadu kulam:

avatIrNo yadukule gRha Anakadundubheh |
vadanti vAsu-deveti vasu-deva-sutam hi mAm || (bhAga.10.51.41)

c) Under Slokam 76, SrI BhaTTarexplains the nAma vAsu-deva in terms of the twelve-lettered mantra, namely thatthe nAma vAsu-deva refers to the Deity that presides over this (vAsu-deva)mantra. The same para-vAsu-deva from SrI vaikunTham took incarnation asvyUha vAsudeva in the Milky Ocean (SrI BhaTTar's interpretation for nAma 714),and He also took the incarnation as the son of devaki and vasu-deva in mathurA (SrIBhaTTar's interpretation for nAma 700). SrI v.v. rAmAnujan observes thatit is the same vyUha vAsu-deva that descended from SrI vaikunTham, that alsotook birth as the child of vasu-deva, delighted the hearts of the gopi-s, wasthe para-tattvam for the yogi-s, and at the same time was the death for kamsaand a terror for his other evil-minded associates.

d) SrI kRshNa datta bhAradvAjincludes an additional interpretation that has not been given by the others - Hehas the nAma vAsu-deva because He is adorned by His devotees - vAsyate sevyatebhaktaih iti vAsuh; sa cAsau deva iti vAsu-devah. The root from which hederives this interpretation is vAs - upasevAyAm - to scent, to make fragrant.

e) One of the meanings for theroot "div" (from which the word deva is derived) is "to movearound" - div krIDA vijigIshA vyavahAra dyuti stuti moda mada svapna kAntigatishu. SrI satyadevo vAsishTha uses this last meaning (gacchati,gamayati) for the word deva, and gives the interpretation for the nAma as"One Who dwells in everything, and makes it possible for everything to movearound". He gives reference to the ISAvAsya Upanishad mantra"ISAvAsyam idam sarvam yad-ki'nca jagatyAm jagat"as support.

SrI cinmayAnanda gives theinterpretation that He has this nAma since He lives in every living entity asthe jIva-entity. He supports his interpretation with a reference to thegItA Slokam 18-61:

ISvarah sarva bhUtAnAmhRd-deSe'rjuna tishThati |
bhrAmayan sarva bhUtAni yantrArUDhAni mAyayA || (gItA18.61)

"The Lord, O arujuna,abides in the heart of every being, spinning them round and round, mounted on awheel as it were, by His power".

The gItA bhAshyam for thisSlokam by bhagavad rAmAnuja indirectly supports this interpretation by the useof the name vASu-deva for bhagavAn in this context - "ISvarahsarva-niyamana-Seelo vAsu-devah sarva-bhUtAnAm hRd-deSe sakala-pravRtti-nivRttimUla-j~nAnodaye deSe tishThati".


About Brahma Samhita,I don't care if it is a forgery or not.None of my business.It isn't a sacred text of the sampradaya that I follow.
Now look at Srimad Bhagavatam 1.3.28
ete cāḿśa-kalāḥ puḿsaḥ
kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam
indrāri-vyākulaḿ lokaḿ
mṛḍayanti yuge yuge

As you can see at http://www.srimadbhagavatam.com/1/3/28/en Prabhupada translates in the following way:
SYNONYMS

ete — all these; ca — and; aḿśa — plenary portions; kalāḥ — portions of the plenary portions; puḿsaḥ — of the Supreme; kṛṣṇaḥ — Lord Kṛṣṇa; tu — but; bhagavān — the Personality of Godhead; svayam — in person; indra-ari — the enemies of Indra; vyākulam — disturbed; lokam — all the planets; mṛḍayanti — gives protection; yuge yuge — in different ages.

TRANSLATION

All of the above-mentioned incarnations are either plenary portions or portions of the plenary portions of the Lord, but Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa is the original Personality of Godhead. All of them appear on planets whenever there is a disturbance created by the atheists. The Lord incarnates to protect the theists.


At http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/canto1/chapter3.html I found the correct translation:
All these are part of Lord Krishna, the Supreme Lord [Bhagavβn] in person who gives protection in all ages and worlds against the enemies of the King of Heaven [Indra].

Dear AnAdi,I repeat that I don't trust to Prabhupada translation.
If you want use the words krsnas tu bhagavan svayam as proof to the Supremacy of Lord Krishna,it is your freedom.If I want use the same words as a proof that Lord Krishna is complete as Sriman Narayana Him-self,it is myreedom.Maybe I am blinded by my love for Sriman Narayana or maybe you are blinded by your love for Lord Krishna.However,don't waste your time to try converte vaisnavas to Gaudiya-sampradaya.Every vaisnava sampradaya is good.Sri Chaitanya considered good other four sampradaya other than his own:including Ramanuja-sampradaya.
My temperament and nature take me to a makestic approach to God.Let every vaisnava travel in his own path.
Regards,
Orlando.









_________________________
My e-mail is lingabhakta@yahoo.it Feel free to e-mail me!

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#69713 - 10/06/05 05:30 PM Re: Bhagavan tattva [Re: Bhakta of God]
Sudarshan Rangaswamy Offline
member
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Registered: 09/02/05
Posts: 341
Dear Orlando,

Your image of Lord Vishnu on the signature is very impressive. I cant take my eyes off it.
_________________________
SrImAn venkatanAthAryaH kavitArkika kesarI | vedAntAcArya-varyo me sannidhattAm sadA hRdi ||

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#69714 - 10/06/05 07:58 PM Re: Bhagavan tattva [Re: Bhakta of God]
anAdi Offline
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Dear Bhakta of God,
Let us see the word for word translation of the verse 10.14.14, where BrahmA speaks to kRSNa:

nArAyaNas tvaM na hi sarva-dehinAm
AtmAsy adhIzAkhila-loka-sAkSI
nArAyaNo 'NgaM nara-bhU-jalAyanAtA
tac cApi satyaM na tavaiva mAyA


Are you not – tvam na hi the Supreme Lord – nArAyaNa, the soul – AtmA of all embodied beings - sarva-dehinAm. You are - asi the original – adi controller – Iza and witness sAkSI of all – akhila realms – loka.
In the next line BrahmA explains the meaning of the word nara-ayana
NArAyaNa, a limb (an expansion) – aNgaM, originating from- bhU the Supreme Lord – nara (it makes little sense to translate aNgaM as relating and nara as man, as BrahmA would have praised kRSNa, emphasizing that nArAyaNa is somehow more related to man than kRSNa would be?!)
the manifesting source – ayanAt of the water (on the bottom of the universe) – jala.
The last line:
And – ca that (expansion or limb) – tat is certainly – eva true (not illusory) – satyaM, not your – na tava illusory energy – mAyA.

The translation of tac cApi satyaM na tavaiva mAyA with
that is what You truly are and not so much Your specific form [mβyβ]
is most inaccurate, if not most dilettante, and shows that the translator has no good understanding of neither vaiSNavas siddhanta, nor Sanskrit, although he says:
For this original translation was used the Vedabase of the BBT offering the work
that Svβmi Prabhupβda's pupils did to complete his translation of the Bhβgavatam


Again the words of BrahmA addressing to GOPALA kRSNA:
Are you not the Supreme Lord, the soul of all embodied beings. You are the original controller and witness of all realms.
NArAyaNa, a limb (an expansion) – aNgaM, originating from the Supreme Lord – nara the manifesting source –ayanAt of the water (on the bottom of the universe).
And that (expansion or limb) is certainly true (not illusory) – satyaM, not your –na tava illusory energy – mAyA.



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#69715 - 10/07/05 01:54 PM Re: Bhagavan tattva [Re: anAdi]
Bhakta of God Offline
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Posts: 330
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Dear AnAdi,
pranamas.
I don't know sankrit except some word and so I ask to someone of this forum to translate the verse you wrote.
Now consider a thing.Madhva,who lived after Ramanuja,was the founder of Dvaita.He wrote a commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam.Sri Madhva said that Narayana is the source of all the incarnations.
By http://www.dvaita.org/shaastra/gita/prabhupada_review.shtml
In addition, Prabhupada's lack of understanding of even the most basic facts of science and astronomy is manifest, so much so that one wonders if he ever passed high school. Consider for instance what he says under X-21: "There are fifty varieties of winds blowing in space," and later, "It appears from this verse that the moon is one of the stars; therefore the stars that twinkle in the sky also reflect the light of the sun. The theory that there are many suns within the universe is not accepted by Vedic literature. The sun is one, and as by the reflection of the sun the moon illuminates, so also do the stars. Since Bhagavad-gita indicates herein that the moon is one of the stars, the twinkling stars are not suns but are similar to the moon." Incidentally, Madhva reads the verse to say that the moon is not like the stars, so Prabhupada's grand delusion that he is in accordance with a "disciplic succession" of understanding "Vedic literature" cannot be taken seriously.

Dear AnAdi,probabily I will not reply anymore.I already follow a very beutiful vaishnava tradition.I don't need to change sampradaya.Jiva Gosvami,the celebrated Vedantin of the Caitanya school says of Sri Ramanuja,the founder of SriVaishnavism, "Pramita mahimnaam","as one whose glory is established."

Regards,
Orlando.
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#69716 - 10/07/05 08:50 PM Re: Bhagavan tattva [Re: Bhakta of God]
anAdi Offline
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Dear Bhakta of God

Interesting that based on those afirmations in that connection, you seem to generally reject the teachings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and in particular Krishna Himself, Who said that among the stars, He is the moon. So I think that in this case, you take more the side of the actual impersonal science of the atheists.

This thread is about bhagavan tattva, not about your changing any sampradaya (success in your vaidhi bhakti sadhana under the guidance of your spiritual master) or about the afirmation of Svami Prabhupada, which follows the afirmation of Sri Krishna, Who says that He is the Moon among the stars.

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#69717 - 10/08/05 09:57 AM Re: Bhagavan tattva [Re: anAdi]
Sudarshan Rangaswamy Offline
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Registered: 09/02/05
Posts: 341
Quote:


Interesting that based on those afirmations in that connection, you seem to generally reject the teachings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and in particular Krishna Himself, Who said that among the stars, He is the moon. So I think that in this case, you take more the side of the actual impersonal science of the atheists.





Lord Krishna's comment that he is moon among the stars should be interpreted with respect to the apparent visual magnitudes of a star, which should be taken to be a celestial object visible at night. Moon, with a visual magnitude of -12.5 is the brightest night object, much brighter than any star.

Moon is not a star - interpreting so makes a mockery of the Bhagavad Gita and its author or commentrator.
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#69718 - 10/10/05 01:49 PM Re: Bhagavan tattva [Re: anAdi]
Bhakta of God Offline
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Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 330
Loc: Italy,Europe
Quote:

Dear Bhakta of God

Interesting that based on those afirmations in that connection, you seem to generally reject the teachings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu and in particular Krishna Himself, Who said that among the stars, He is the moon. So I think that in this case, you take more the side of the actual impersonal science of the atheists.

This thread is about bhagavan tattva, not about your changing any sampradaya (success in your vaidhi bhakti sadhana under the guidance of your spiritual master) or about the afirmation of Svami Prabhupada, which follows the afirmation of Sri Krishna, Who says that He is the Moon among the stars.




Dear AnAdi and Sudarshan,
pranamas.
Sudarshan,thanks for your reply.
AnAdi,I take the side of the truth.It is a commen error think that all scientists are materialist and atheist.THis is not true.However if I recognize that an atheist is truthful,I take his side..AnAdi,remember that the truth will be always the truth.The moon is a planet,not a star.
At http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2005/images/sun-soho011905-1919z.jpg you may find an image of the Sun.Please remember that the Sun is a star.At http://www.aster.org/seccions/galeria/llena.jpg you may find an image of the Moon.

Regards,
Orlando.
_________________________
My e-mail is lingabhakta@yahoo.it Feel free to e-mail me!

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#69719 - 10/16/05 06:53 PM Re: Bhagavan tattva [Re: Bhakta of God]
shivashankar Offline
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Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 26
Bhakta,

If the question is "Did Krishna originate from Brahma?" - then the answer is No.

Did you know about the first two incarnations of Krishna, Varaha Avatharam and Narasimha Avatharam ?

According to the Narasimha Avatharam, Hiranyakasibo will get a boon from Brahma saying he shouldn't be killed by any creation of Brahma, not a man or animal, nor during day or night blah blah..

Krishna incarnated as Narasimha and killed Hiranyakasibo.
So this denies the logic that Krishna was created from Brahma by Brahma's own boon given to Hiranyakasibo.

I am not a supported of Prahupada..blah blah , actually a shiva bhakta but its wrong to say Krishna originated from brahma, both shiva and vishnu are the same and the supreme truth.

aum namaH shivAya
shiva.shankar



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