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#6565 - 07/20/00 07:16 PM The Dvaita Viewpoint *****
vinaire Offline
sage
**

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 4655
Loc: Florida, USA
The Dvaita viewpoint is essentially a personal system for enforcing compliance on oneself. It is preceded by a decision to not be responsible on a self-determined basis.

When one finds out that he needs some order in his life to survive better, he searches for an external entity to enforce that order in his life. He finally selects from what is available to him by common agreement in the society. If the society allows him he can even create such an entity. He gives that entity those attributes that he would ideally like to have in himself.

He then starts calling that entity God, Allah, Ishwar, Ishta Devta, or whatever.


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Communication is the universal solvent.
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Communication is the universal solvent.

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#6566 - 07/20/00 10:58 PM Re: The Dvaita Viewpoint [Re: vinaire]
vinaire Offline
sage
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Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 4655
Loc: Florida, USA
"Now, as society exists at the present time, all these three stages are necessary; the one does not deny the other, one is simply the fulfillment of the other. The Advaitist or the qualified Advaitist does not say that dualism is wrong; it is a right view, but a lower one. It is on the way to truth; therefore let everybody work out his own vision of this universe, according to his own ideas. Injure none, deny the position of none; take man where he stands and, if you can, lend him a helping hand and put him on a higher platform, but do not injure and do not destroy."
- Swami Vivekananda

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Communication is the universal solvent.
_________________________
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Communication is the universal solvent.

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#6567 - 07/30/00 07:58 AM Re: The Dvaita Viewpoint [Re: vinaire]
venky Offline
initiate
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Registered: 07/30/00
Posts: 183
Loc: India
I agree with your views on dwaita absolutely. Advaita is to seek perfection within oneself. Dwaita is to capitulate on this search to endow the attitudes of perfection in an imaginary "God"


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#6568 - 09/05/00 11:37 AM Re: The Dvaita Viewpoint [Re: venky]
shrao Offline
seeker

Registered: 09/05/00
Posts: 53
> I agree with your views on dwaita absolutely. Advaita is to seek perfection within oneself. Dwaita is to
> capitulate on this search to endow the attitudes of perfection in an imaginary "God"

Hmm... I would put it the opposite; Dvaita is to seek the perfect, Real, Supreme Being who is within
oneself and also everywhere else; Advaita is to capitulate completely and describe Him as being
imaginary, and to say that "perfection" is a perfect lack of attributes -- a "grapes are sour"
recourse. After all, the Advaitic notion of perfection is quite chimerical, since all qualities such as
might be considered necessary for real perfection are considered illusory.

Regards,

Shrisha Rao



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http://www.dvaita.org
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#6569 - 09/05/00 12:11 PM Re: The Dvaita Viewpoint [Re: shrao]
vinaire Offline
sage
**

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 4655
Loc: Florida, USA
According to the Vedas any consideration that you may put forth to describe Brahman is nothing but your own consideration.

All those attributes that you are assigning to Brahman as "perfection" are just your consirations and nothing else.

Brahman is the generator (source) of those considerations.

That is the simple truth in my view.

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Communication is the universal solvent.
_________________________
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Communication is the universal solvent.

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#6570 - 09/05/00 12:20 PM Re: The Dvaita Viewpoint [Re: vinaire]
shrao Offline
seeker

Registered: 09/05/00
Posts: 53
> According to the Vedas any consideration that you may put forth to describe Brahman is nothing but
> your own consideration.

Okay, I'm calling your bluff. Where in the Vedas does it say that? Give me the exact citation, chapter
and verse.

> All those attributes that you are assigning to Brahman as "perfection" are just your consirations and
> nothing else.

Unfortunately for you, that's not so. The Black Yajur Veda says that the Brahman's attributes are
*eternal* -- eshha nityo mahimA brahmaNasya. The Brhadaranyaka also says that His attributes are
without destruction, that He is `anuchchhittidharmA'. Also see RV 8.3.4, `satyaH so asya mahimA'.

> Brahman is the generator (source) of those considerations.

This is known to you how?

> That is the simple truth if only you can wrap your wits around it.

No, it is your delusion, as will become clear to you if you can get your head out of the sand and see
the Vedic doctrine for what is actually Vedic, rather than whatever neo-Vedantic Vivekananda [censored]
you've been fed so far.

Regards,

Shrisha Rao

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http://www.dvaita.org
_________________________
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http://www.dvaita.org

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#6571 - 09/05/00 12:54 PM Post deleted by vinaire [Re: shrao]
vinaire Offline
sage
**

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 4655
Loc: Florida, USA
_________________________
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Communication is the universal solvent.

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#6572 - 09/05/00 01:14 PM Re: The Dvaita Viewpoint [Re: shrao]
ashegan Offline
member
*****

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 304
Loc: kwazulu-natal, south africa
dear shrisha ji
namaste!
some good points made.. unfortunately the neo-vedantists of our modern times are so wrapped up in the basic axioms they convince themselves are absolutely true, that they aren't even prepared to take a look and examine for themselves eg. the equations like 'brahman + maya = ishwara' and 'ishwara + avidya = jiva'.. that is why they shy away from ved all the time.. coz they know they will be exposed..
in his time maharshi dayanand defeated all the neo-vedant theologians in debate with the strength of ved and upanishads.. what was intended in the time of adi shankaracharya to merely quell the rise of non-vedik dharmas like buddhism and jainism in bharat, became a fully fledged doctrine on its own.. very sad development of kali yug..

you are right that the attributes of brahma paramatma are eternal, and not subject to change, like brahman morphing into atman, becoming ignorant etc.. ved is full of verses that describe him as greater than the soul and distinct from the soul.. yajurved declares very straightforwardly: 'shaashvatibhya samaabhyah!' - the soul is ETERNALLY subject to god..

this philosophy has so corrupted many minds that they even go so far as calling what is taught in ved as 'semitic' because the semitic religions believe in distinction between god and soul.. they forget the fact that the rshis from brahma to jaimini taught that very same thing, and they lived before the first semite prophet was even born! and then they go so far to say hinduism is ultimately only advaita, and dvaitins ultimately will become advaitins !

ashegan pillai
_________________________
ashegan pillai

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#6573 - 09/05/00 01:51 PM Re: The Dvaita Viewpoint [Re: vinaire]
shrao Offline
seeker

Registered: 09/05/00
Posts: 53
> Brahman is "eternal" simply because TIME is one of the considerations generated by Brahman.

Rubbish. I called your bluff and asked you to show where your bogus theories have their origins in the
Vedas, and you have failed to do this. Until and unless you do, you'd better just shut up and not
continue putting your foot in your mouth.

> You are simply evaluating Brahman against the considerations generated by Brahman.

I am simply stating how Brahman is actually described in the Vedas; you have no real knowledge of
the Vedas, and are hand-waving and dismissing their frank assertions without basis in favor of your
own imagined knowledge.

> Brahman is "all pervading" and not "separate" simply because SPACE is another consideration generated
> by Brahman.

See above.

> Because there are these consderations they are coming from some point, but you cannot describe that
> point in terms of matter, energy, space and time.

There is no such thing as a "point" which is not in space or in time.

> Is that your personal sense of self-importance which makes you too quick to judge? Aren't you being a
> "lakeer ka fakeer" with no integrated understanding of the Vedas?

Not at all, but you are. I have quite a proper understanding of the Vedas, and have been properly
schooled in them. You, on the other hand, claim Vedic basis for your absurd statements without
demonstrating any. I may also point out that this thread is titled "The Dvaita Viewpoint," which I am
correctly representing, though you probably aren't aware of that.

Regards,

Shrisha Rao

==

http://www.dvaita.org
_________________________
==

http://www.dvaita.org

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#6574 - 09/05/00 02:01 PM Re: The Dvaita Viewpoint [Re: ashegan]
shrao Offline
seeker

Registered: 09/05/00
Posts: 53
> dear shrisha ji
> namaste!

sAdar praNAm...

> you are right that the attributes of brahma paramatma are eternal, and not subject to change, like
> brahman morphing into atman, becoming ignorant etc.. ved is full of verses that describe him as greater
> than the soul and distinct from the soul.. yajurved declares very straightforwardly: 'shaashvatibhya
> samaabhyah!' - the soul is ETERNALLY subject to god..

Actually, I believe the context of `yAthAtathyato.arthAn.h vyadadhAt.h shAshvatIbhyaH samAbhyaH'
(IshAvAsya 8) is that Creation is eternally true, but generally speaking you are right.

Btw, you may be interested to know that we have recently published the IshAvAsya U. with several
commentaries and a translation in English also. This is a PDF file of 1720 KB, and available from
http://www.dvaita.net (if you have trouble downloading, let me know). There is also a Preface that
discusses the various interpretations of the Upanishad.

With warm regards,

Shrisha Rao

> ashegan pillai


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