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#23942 - 05/28/04 08:52 AM prasadam ki jaya [Re: Shaivite]
yasoda-nandana Offline
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Registered: 04/15/04
Posts: 60
When a person reaches a high level of spiritual advancement, if he has not already given up meat, that person will automatically realize the high value of ahimsa and stop eating meat
--i think that the "flavor" of vedic consciousness is slightly different... if we were speaking of very esoteric principles or, perhaps, very huge attachments like sex or sex pervertions i would agree with the "spontaneity party"... but when we are speaking of meat eating i think it is required a little sacrifice and personal effort and to give up it even if we will have difficulties. Let us not forget that for this mistake other living beings are killed, so, for their respect it is necessary to stop even if there's some repression on our senses

For those of us who are not that spiritually advanced, it is a wise choice to stop participating or consuming things that aren't good for us (meat, drugs, alcohol, immoral entertainment, etc.). As for people who may not be Hindus and eat meat, when such people reach a very high state of realization, the abolition of meat will naturally happen.
--again i am not on this "naturality" side.... some effort is required to stop the killing, the accent has to be put on the fact that it is not only a consciousness or comprehension subjective problem.. there are objectively millions of individuals every year that are killed

If we are not eating meat right now (as I've been vegetarian for a year now), then we are already at the stage of understanding this important principle. Many Hindus aren't at that stage and eat meat and some do not eat meat but don't realize the reasoning behind it.
---so let us explain the reason, no problem, but again the primary importance is to stop as mich as possible the killing. If you come against me with a gun i confess that i am not so much concerned if you give up killing me because i give you a kick on the face or because you suddenly realize upanishad, vedanta, mahabharata, the four vedas and puranas.... stop killing in any way for any reason, then the instruction will come, no problem

Ultimately, I feel that it is consciousness level that really counts
--but if you do not have a sufficient level of satvik life there's almost no possibility of reaching any kind of consciousness... ok miracles are possible, god can enter in the mind of anyoe and make a saint from a serial killer, but they are.... miracles. So it is necessary a little effort by our side to avoid the most sinful acts in order to advance

On the contrary, I disagree with any such statements where one would go so far to say that a meat-eater cannot be religious or spiritual at all and cannot have any kind of connection to God
---it depends on wich level of spirituality and connection you consider.... from the average kali yuga perspective one is an hero even if he makes all sins possible and once in a year goes to the christmas mass, but if we consider the very high level of consciousness and saint example that we can see in vedic tradition it surely can be said that no one eating meat cannot even imagine to go at such levels. Let us remember that our tradition speaks of seeing god directly, seeing visva rupa, experiencing brahman, realizing paramatma not only some improvement in our moral behaviour and acquiring some sense that there's something beyond the material nature

so let us consider the proper perspective

.
That is not true at all. A person can be very spiritual and religious and close to God and still eat meat
---considering the vedic culture... "close to god" is exagerated, let us say "some sense of belonging to a higher energy.." and it is more appropriated

P.S. I agree with regards to the importance of prasadam. Food is "stealing" in a sense. After all, did we pay that tree to take its fruit? It is important to show our gratitude and respect to God by offering the food to God before eating it. After all, we aren't the doers, God is (as per the Gita) and therefore should realize that God (in whatever form one concieves of) is the giver, preserver, and taker of all.
---yes i think that your explanation is very good.. so if food is stealing imagine how meat can be stealing and murdering. So let'us say that vegetarianism has main importance also because we have to offer our food to krsna if we do not want to take a new birth to repay it
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man-mana bhava mad-bhakto, mad-yaji mam namaskuru mam evaisyasi yuktvaivam, atmanam mat-parayanah

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#23943 - 05/28/04 01:58 PM Re: Scriptural Position on Vegetarianism [Re: Shaivite]
Americanhindu1 Offline
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 418
Shaivaite: Did you know that Jewish people worshipped "BYBLOS" the golden cattle up until 1,000BC?

WHY?

They believed in cows being sacred. then they also believed in VARAHA AVATAR and that is why they did not eat PORK at all.

BUT christians wanted to break the psyche of those people first, by killing all pigs for animal sacrifice under the influence of Nubian people (who ate pigs in egypt and in africa)! Jesus was half semitic and half Nubian only..or that character who was supposed to be Jesus before he got crucified. Then the pigs went down as food.

Even then there were people who followed SANATANA Dharma in that region w Deities' worship. Jews and christians hated that. The Jews were persecuting Hindus first, by offering cows in sacrifice after Passover time when Moses delivered them from egypt as slaves. From then on they started to eat beef. They also were joined by Quereshi pagan arabs later when Abrahman built a road from jordan to Mecca or Medinah region or built that KABAH that those muslims worship. That is why the QURAN starts w the chapter named COW and it is given in there, how those muslims were tricked by ABRAHAM and his workers or followers to kill all cows for meat, w the hope that they would drive all Sanatana Dharma followers out of that region. That was in 570AD.

But this type of cruel persecution was attempted by those three religious groups to get rid of Hindus from that region. Persians also had a major role in that attempt.

Anyway, what KS wrote was right about ARYUNS introuducing stuff to VEDIC culture to twist it. Aryuns included Buddhists or pali speaking (variant of Sanskrit language or what we call it as watered down sanskrit and other prakrit language or dilect speaking people) came in and were shocked to find out that SANATANA DHARMA was still existing in the original form in Indus valley.

If a SANATANA Dharmist was placed in a situation where nothing but meat is available, he or she would eat that to live. It was very evident from MB and RAMAYANA times that some RISHIS were eating meat or were tricked into it.

food as in dead meat is not safe for people in INDIA to consume if they do not have adequate refrigeration facilities for all people, esp in villages. SALMONELLA poisoning is a real danger. Listeriosis is yet another problem.

So, they try to eat fresh meat if possible, like Halal meat or cured kosher stuff like the Jewish people in certain areas of that country, which I have seen when I was travelling there! EVEN then, it did not amount to any safe handling of meat products there, as there is no FDA or CDC checking for any germs or contamination of feces or other pathogens in them.

Is vegetarian food better than meat based food? Of course.

Does it offer enough calories for people who say for example do very hard or physical labor? Not really.

IS it helpful for keeping your body wt at certain levels?

NOPE.

LOOK at elephants, hippopotamus or any vegetarian animal now, they are very huge in size. THere are vegetarian women that I have seen who are way too heavy.

But the idea is food safety and availability of all nutrients, w/o having to compromise your health. Meat products contain too much of fat which may increase your bad cholesterol level or put you in risk for developing heart conditions.

Vegetable salads are better. Eggs contain a lot of cholesterol and so are your coconuts.

ALL food items are dead matter only. Dead matter does not contain any ATMAN at all. So eat what your body can handle and good for your metabolic rate.

Being healthy and happy is very important for all people. If a groups of dalits or any people have no food to eat or have any one decent meal a day, what is the use of talking about this subject here now?

Do all people in India have enough to eat at least one time a day?

If not all these theories about vegetarianism or non-vegetarianism are all just a waste of time. Futile!

THink about incresing food supply, a safe source for all people there, w/o using religion to make decisions now please.

Religion and politics have to remain separate all the time.
People need food to live there first.

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#23944 - 05/29/04 06:14 PM Re: Scriptural Position on Vegetarianism [Re: Shaivite]
krishna_susarla Offline
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 119
Quote:

There is a difference between murdering a cow and merely eating beef. Both are sinful but to very different degrees. Namaste. ~Shaivite~





That is merely your own, unfounded and unqualified opinion. Manu, who has set forth the laws of Sanaatana Dharma has given the proper conclusion:


anumantaa vishasitaa nihantaa krayavikrayii |
sa.mskartaa chopahartaa cha khaadakashcheti ghaatakaaH || MS 5.51 ||

He who permits (the slaughter of an animal), he who cuts it up, he who kills it, he who buys or sells (meat), he who cooks it, he who serves it up, and he who eats it, (must all be considered as) the slayers (of the animal) (manu smR^iti 5.51).


Thus, one who distinguishes between murdering a cow and eating it, even subtly, is speaking against the authority of Manu and hence against the principle of Sanaatana-dharma.


Shaivite uvaacha:

"A Christian or Muslim can indeed be very spiritual, religious, and close to God and eat beef." (paragraph #2 of posting #41338 dated 03/16/04 06:02 PM)


"There is a difference between murdering a cow and merely eating beef. Both are sinful but to very different degrees. Namaste." (posting #44318 dated 05/27/04 01:56 AM)



Edited by krishna_susarla (05/29/04 06:24 PM)
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#23945 - 05/29/04 06:25 PM Re: Scriptural Position on Vegetarianism [Re: krishna_susarla]
krishna_susarla Offline
initiate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 119
Quote:

There is a difference between murdering a cow and merely eating beef. Both are sinful but to very different degrees. Namaste. ~Shaivite~




That is merely your own, unfounded and unqualified opinion. Manu, who has set forth the laws of Sanaatana Dharma has given the proper conclusion:


anumantaa vishasitaa nihantaa krayavikrayii |
sa.mskartaa chopahartaa cha khaadakashcheti ghaatakaaH || MS 5.51 ||

He who permits (the slaughter of an animal), he who cuts it up, he who kills it, he who buys or sells (meat), he who cooks it, he who serves it up, and he who eats it, (must all be considered as) the slayers (of the animal) (manu smR^iti 5.51).


Thus, one who distinguishes between murdering a cow and eating it, even subtly, is speaking against the authority of Manu and hence against the principle of Sanaatana-dharma.

Shaivite uvaacha:

"A Christian or Muslim can indeed be very spiritual, religious, and close to God and eat beef." (paragraph #2 of posting #41338 dated 03/16/04 06:02 PM)

"There is a difference between murdering a cow and merely eating beef. Both are sinful but to very different degrees. Namaste." (posting #44318 dated 05/27/04 01:56 AM)
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#23946 - 06/13/04 04:02 PM Re: Scriptural Position on Vegetarianism [Re: krishna_susarla]
Vedaputra Offline
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Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 127
Loc: Mrityulok


ll Namaste ll


Quote:

If educated people take the time to read *and* follow the Vedic scriptures, "uneducated" people will no doubt follow their example, if not in the reading, then at least in the following...............Whether learning it is really important in one's mind will be understood from one's actions, and not merely one's words.




I applaude with the most highest respect at your each and every word that rings so true in many Hindus today around the globe. The term "Hindu" is just used as a method to "belong" because everything they do now is a "monkey see, monkey do" of american people with their "secular" and "free" ideas that have the dirty stench of corruption and sin all over them.

Thankyou for being so straightforward.


ll Pranaam ll


_________________________
"O friends, do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him alone." [RV. 8:1:1] "Verily, great is the glory of the Divine Creator." [RV. 5:1:81]

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#23947 - 06/13/04 04:24 PM Re: Scriptural Position on Vegetarianism [Re: krishna_susarla]
Vedaputra Offline
initiate
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Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 127
Loc: Mrityulok

ll Namaste ll


Quote:

One cannot be "religious" according to Vedic culture and still eat beef................If you can't control your senses enough to avoid causing violence to innocent creatures, then you have no business speaking on the subject of spirituality.





You know i find myself agreeing with your post whole heartedly twice in a row! Ive never had such a full agreement with anyone on this message board since ive been hear.

You seem to be quite understanding of the scriptural laws and requirements. A noble thing to say the least



ll Pranaam ll


_________________________
"O friends, do not worship anybody but Him, the Divine One. Praise Him alone." [RV. 8:1:1] "Verily, great is the glory of the Divine Creator." [RV. 5:1:81]

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#23948 - 06/13/04 09:53 PM Re: Scriptural Position on Vegetarianism [Re: Vedaputra]
marik Offline
elder
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Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 1366
Loc: United States
Over the course of the past few months I have come into agreement with this opinion also.
Thanks to you both, and others, for voicing it here.

The logical analagy is the classic Lotus. Lesser flowers (humans) wilt and die or are destroyed by the filth (corruption)which immerses them (influences their lives), because they become one with it, letting it seep into their stems (lives). The (pure hearted) Lotus sheilds itself from the filth (corruption) by doing what Brahman intended it to do and being what Brahman intended it to be (following dharma) by closing up its petals (remaining true to dharma) to keep the filth out, and not only remains alive and uncorrupted by the filth, but rises above it to glorious and beautiful profusion of bloom.
It is the same case in East and in West. No matter how filthy things get, there will always be those able to rise above it. We don't have to give up and become part of the filth... God has provided a path out of it, and we should learn and follow His teachings and look to those who are on that path for guidance.(realized souls, yogis, gurus etc) Their selfless service helps us along the path, and our selfless service will help someone else also.

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By cultivating friendliness towards happiness and compassion towards misery, gladness towards virtue and indifference towards vice, the mind becomes pure. -- Patanjali

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#23949 - 06/14/04 07:18 AM Post deleted by Shaivite [Re: krishna_susarla]
rudrasharman Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 37
[Post removed at request of user]


Edited by Shaivite (02/02/05 01:10 AM)

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#23950 - 06/14/04 08:14 AM Re: Scriptural Position on Vegetarianism *DELETED* [Re: rudrasharman]
Shaivite Offline
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Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 2999
Post deleted by Shaivite

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#23951 - 06/17/04 06:01 AM Re: Scriptural Position on Vegetarianism [Re: rudrasharman]
krishna_susarla Offline
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 119
Quote:


Only diehard casteists and similar reactionaries would even think of citing the Manusmriti as an "authority" in this day and age. Never mind that these "traditionalists" are quite content to make laughing stocks of themselves; nothing could be more apt than the existing dharmashastra literature to give Hinduism a bad name.

My advice to people looking for sound citations on this issue: if someone starts peddling disastrously compromised texts like the Manusmriti, don't walk, run away. For sanity.





Spoken like a true student of Marxist-influenced post-colonial Indian pseudo-scholarship. I especially liked your irrational and xenophobic statement of rejection.

May inquire as to how many times you have actually read manu-dharma-shaastra? I suspect none. That's fine of course - but I just feel it's quite dishonest to express such a strong opinion about a text you never even read.

Anyway, Manu is one of the forefathers of Vedic civilization, traditionally speaking. If you don't like that, no one is forcing you to follow Vedic culture. Feel free to pick another religion. You don't have to be here.

This discussion is taking place between two parties who at least in theory accept the same corpus of authoritative scriptures. If you are not in either party, you may find another religion more to your liking. Kindly leave us to our discussion.
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H. Krishna Susarla M.D. Achintya Mailing List www.achintya.org

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