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#23272 - 07/03/01 10:59 AM Re: Buddha's Teachings [Re: Vaman]
vinaire Offline
sage
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Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 4655
Loc: Florida, USA
You didn't answer my question. You avoided it.

What is Life? How does Buddhism negate it?

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Communication is the universal solvent.
_________________________
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Communication is the universal solvent.

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#23273 - 07/03/01 11:28 AM Re: Buddha's Teachings [Re: vinaire]
Vaman Offline
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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 360
Buddha's teachings : Four Noble Truths ("chatvari arya satyani")

The Truth of Suffering : Suffering (dukha) is the central fact of life. Pain is being born, growing old, sickness, death union with what we dislike is pain, separation from what we dislike, not fulfilling desires

The Truth of Origin (Samudaya) of Suffering : The cause of suffering is desires (ichcha), craving (tanha) or thirst (tishna) for sensual pleasures, for existence and experience, for worldly possessions and power. This craving binds one to rebirth, samsara.

The Truth of Cessation (Nirodha) of Suffering : Suffering can cease only by complete cessation of desires

The Truth of the Path (Marga) To Ending Suffering : Suffering can be overcome by following eightfold path (arya ashtanga marga), right belief, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right meditation.

All life perpetuates suffering and evil.
the human body is made of puss and all kinds of filth-( I have quotes)
There is a way to terminate this decease called life.
He will Initiate and give him the robe and the bowl.
The instincts that gave birth to life has to be terminated
The technique to terminate is through monkdom
Nirvana is the termination...extinction of all future life process


--The Hindu View---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The vishnu purana says...God Incarnated as the buddha to fool the demons into a false doctrine of nihilism...life defeating philosophy....

This author of vishnu puran had such deep insights into the essense of buddhism.

read carefully what is below.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the essense of buddhism

1. that the most powerful desires of life that have the most future have hitherto been slandered, so a curse weighs on life;
2. that the growing courage and integrity and the bolder mistrust that now characterize man comprehend that these instincts are inseparable from life, and one therefore turns against life;
3. that only the most mediocre, who have no feeling at all for this conflict, flourish while the higher kind miscarries and, as a product of degeneration, invites antipathy-that the mediocre on the other hand, when they pose as the goal and meaning, arouse indignation (that nobody is able any more to answer any "for
4. that diminution, sensitivity to pain, restlessness, haste, and hustling grow continually-that it becomes easier and easier to recognize this whole commotion, this so-called "civilization," and that the individual, faced with this tremendous machinery, loses courage and submits.
The development of Hindu pessimism into nihilism.-Denaturalization of values. Scholasticism of values. Detached and idealistic, values, instead of dominating and guiding action, turn against action and condemn it.- in short - The Buddha
We should not deck out and embellish Buddhism: it has waged a war to the death against this higher type of man, it has put all the deepest instincts of this type under its ban, it has developed its concept of life as evil, and the world the Evil One himself, out of these instincts--the strong man as the typical reprobate, the "outcast among men." Buddhism along with Christianity has taken the part of all the weak, the low, the botched; it has made an ideal out of antagonism to all the self-preservative instincts of sound life; it has corrupted even the faculties of those natures that are intellectually most vigorous, by representing the highest intellectual values as sinful, as misleading, as full of temptation.
Buddha turnes life against itself..healthey instincts ..competitive instincts..Noble instincts..into something corrupt and evil.
It overturnes all that was Noble ( Aryan)..thought to be noble (Aryan) into something false and loathing....
I call an animal, a species, an individual corrupt, when it loses its instincts, when it chooses, when it prefers, what is injurious to it. A history of the "higher feelings," the "ideals of humanity"--and it is possible that I'll have to write it--would almost explain why man is so degenerate. Life itself appears to me as an instinct for growth, for survival, for the accumulation of forces, for power: whenever the will to power fails there is disaster. My contention is that all the highest values of humanity have been emptied of this will--that the values of decadence, of nihilism, now prevail under the holiest names - christality..buddhism and islam.

Pity thwarts the whole law of evolution, which is the law of natural selection. It preserves whatever is ripe for destruction; it fights on the side of those disinherited and condemned by life; by maintaining life in so many of the botched of all kinds, it gives life itself a gloomy and dubious aspect. Mankind has ventured to call pity a virtue (--in every superior moral system it appears as a weakness--); going still further, it has been called the virtue, the source and foundation of all other virtues--but let us always bear in mind that this was from the standpoint of a Buddha whose philosophy was nihilistic, and upon whose shield the denial of life was inscribed.

vishnupuran...
Some penetrating insight to think..contemplate and look into the whole mechanism and game of nirvana.
The Vedic sages taught ..just the opposite. They were life affirmer's..not life denier's.
Krishna tells arjuna...." What is this unmanly behavior Arjuna"
Manliness is the highest virtue and the core of hindu religion.
I salute him and stand humbled at his insight, truth and wisdom



"what is truth and who is a hindu are two seperate issues.
How can a hindu realize truth another....."
_________________________
"between two thought in that silence be."

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#23274 - 07/04/01 02:32 AM Re: Buddha's Teachings [Re: Vaman]
vinaire Offline
sage
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Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 4655
Loc: Florida, USA
From Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia:

The Buddha was an oral teacher; he left no written body of thought. His beliefs were codified by later followers.

The Four Noble Truths. At the core of the Buddha’s enlightenment was the realization of the Four Noble Truths: (1) Life is suffering. This is more than a mere recognition of the presence of suffering in existence. It is a statement that, in its very nature, human existence is essentially painful from the moment of birth to the moment of death. Even death brings no relief, for the Buddha accepted the Hindu idea of life as cyclical, with death leading to further rebirth.



Vinaire’s Comments:
(a) Here “life” actually means the life of bondage. Human existence is a life of bondage for the spiritual being.

(b) A spiritual being gets enslaved to the body by identifying itself with the body. He is then subject to the “cycle of life” that the body goes through.

(c) The spiritual being is neither born nor it dies. It is the identification with the body that puts it under the illusion of birth and death.

(d) Due to this identification with the body the immortal and infinite being considers itself to be mortal and finite.

(e) The spiritual being that is, by nature, CAUSE, now becomes an EFFECT of all the vicissitudes in life.

(f) The result of this identification with the body (human existence) is nothing but suffering.


The Problem: There is beingness, but Man believes that there is only becomingness.


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Communication is the universal solvent.
_________________________
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Communication is the universal solvent.

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#23275 - 07/04/01 03:53 PM Re: Buddha's Teachings [Re: vinaire]
Vaman Offline
member
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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 360
Vaman's comments on Vinaire’s Comments:


1/ "Here “life” actually means the life of bondage. Human existence is a life of bondage for the spiritual being"

vinaire- The essence of veda is that bondage itself is an illusion.
No where in the rigveda one finds life denial rather everywhere it is life affirmation.

2/ "A spiritual being gets enslaved to the body by identifying itself with the body. He is then subject to the “cycle of life” that the body goes through"

Nothing gets enslaved...the enslavement is a delusion....
there is no "cycle of life" only activity born out of false understanding and taking the delusion for the real.

3/"The spiritual being is neither born nor it dies. It is the identification with the body that puts it under the illusion of birth and death"

There is no spiritual being but only Being...

4/ "Due to this identification with the body the immortal and infinite being considers itself to be mortal and finite."

Yes..but then there is nothing wrong..cause life here and now is the full expression of the Joy of Being.

5/ The spiritual being that is, by nature, CAUSE, now becomes an EFFECT of all the vicissitudes in life

That is ...thinking too much and living little....there is no cause...only Being with and being in presence of that " Thou are that"

6/"The result of this identification with the body (human existence) is nothing but suffering"

This is exaggeration .born out of very negative analysis of life.
That is putting too much value into the negative emotions of being in the world.. and loosing the and forgetting The Being in presence..


"what is truth and who is a hindu are two seperate issues.
How can a hindu realize truth another....."
_________________________
"between two thought in that silence be."

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#23276 - 07/04/01 07:15 PM Re: Buddha's Teachings [Re: Vaman]
vinaire Offline
sage
**

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 4655
Loc: Florida, USA
From Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia:

The Four Noble Truths:

(2) All suffering is caused by the ignorance of the nature of reality and the craving, attachment, and grasping that result from such ignorance.



Vinaire’s Comments:

(a) That which we agree with becomes a reality for us.

(b) Thus, we create our reality, but we forget that we did so.

(c) We forget because we want the reality to continue on its own.

(d) We become ignorant through our forgetfulness.

(e) The initial agreements then lead to more agreements, and we start to take them seriously.

(f) Thus, we become increasingly subject to the reality.

(g) We start to suffer through that reality because we believe that we cannot change it.

(h) We can change the reality but we don’t because of our craving and attachment to the initial agreements.


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Communication is the universal solvent.
_________________________
.
.
.
Communication is the universal solvent.

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#23277 - 07/05/01 01:41 AM Re: Buddha's Teachings [Re: vinaire]
Vaman Offline
member
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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 360
vinaire does not explain what he means by reality or what Buddha ment by it.
Buddhism itself is full of self contradiction as to its validity.
in the final analysis..dependent origin and momentary bing is said to be the crux of its definition.
but this has bees shown to be false and buddha's house of cards came tumbling down.
as far as buddhas ethics are concerned ...they were schoolish...and bookish talks..
replaced by the gurukul by Panchtantra...as it taught problem solving and intelligent activity when faced with an adversary..
every parent teaches the child ethics..like dont lie..do do this...etc etc.
but then one can do nothing for ones basic disposition..even after all the schooling the Buddhist were corrupt and politics was played in every institutes of Buddha.
no doubt...no body took them seriously
people wanted skills...both physical and mental ..to come to terms with their day to day life.
where as buddhist vocabulary ended in Nirvana ( self termination - No being )and being in the world as something negative-..and not moksha ( release from self ignorance while still grounded and acknowledging the positive nature of Being in the world.)..
I hope Mr vinaire explain what truth and reality was..by so and so when they said so and so...before quoting a full agreement and a lively commentary on it.... which can be in a way...taking us for a ride.

Summa of agreement on Mr vinaire
Till one feels secure "Being in the world"..there is no problem...
When this security is threatened...it makes us take positions and stance..which can be slander..hate...or truly coming to terms with that has caused the ...conflict.
A healthy mind comes to terms with it in a positive way....
but ...where there is a way there is grace....and so self conflict also opens the gates for higher realization...of which its first insight is that all security is only illusion...and any mode of secure a secure foundation either objective or subjective..that is ..any attempt by the Being In the World ..to find or reach any psychological and permanent rest ( security) is ..in its final moment self deception.

Vaman

"what is truth and who is a hindu are two seperate issues.
How can a hindu realize truth another....."
_________________________
"between two thought in that silence be."

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#23278 - 07/05/01 10:57 AM Re: Buddha's Teachings [Re: Vaman]
vinaire Offline
sage
**

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 4655
Loc: Florida, USA
”From the high spiritual flights of the Vedanta philosophy, of which the latest discoveries of science seem like echoes, to the low ideas of idolatry with its multifarious mythology, the agnosticism of the Buddhists and the atheism of the Jains, each and all have a place in the Hindu's religion.”

- Swami Vivekananda


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Communication is the universal solvent.
_________________________
.
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.
Communication is the universal solvent.

Top
#23279 - 07/05/01 05:55 PM Re: Buddha's Teachings [Re: vinaire]
Vaman Offline
member
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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 360
//to the low ideas of idolatry with its multifarious mythology//

what you call Idolatry...are gateways to higher realization.
some see Idols in it ...some deeper meaning...
all ways lead to advaita.
but some by by negative dilectics against life here and now and some see " man Being in the world" as positive..

mythological symbols are highest appropriated in human vocabulary of the poet-artist and the singing and dancing loving heart of the devote.

something the christian..buddhist and islamic dogmatic blindless could never see.

---------------------------------------

Buddhist text has no meaning beyond its palayanvada

Vedanta takes Man " Being in the world" as something positive. where as the buddhist as some thing Negative
Here lies the whole difference.

There are some interesting commonality between buddhism and Vedanta.....these should be brought to the surface.

any way -when that is done..the difference between them ceases.

Mahayana and vedanta...an interesting commonality

but then when buddhism started to sound like vedanta...the difference was lost and buddhism ceased to exist in india absorbed in a far greater vehicle then Mahayana...

--------------------------------

Even what vivekananda says should not be taken blindly..that is without critical understanding.
I think Vivekananda would have appreciated that.

-Vaman



"what is truth and who is a hindu are two seperate issues.
How can a hindu realize truth another....."
_________________________
"between two thought in that silence be."

Top
#23280 - 07/06/01 01:52 AM Re: Buddha's Teachings [Re: Vaman]
vinaire Offline
sage
**

Registered: 01/16/00
Posts: 4655
Loc: Florida, USA
From Funk & Wagnalls New Encyclopedia:

The Four Noble Truths:

(3) Suffering can be ended by overcoming ignorance and attachment.



Vinaire’s Comments:

(a) This statement is straight from the Vedas.

(b) Ignorance is not recognizing something for what it truly is.

(c) Anything that exists has been brought into existence.

(d) Anything that has been brought into existence can also cease to exist.

(e) In other words, anything that is created can also be uncreated.

(f) Therefore, all creation is impermanent.

(g) This attribute of impermanence is called Maya.

(h) Any appearance is simply what it is created to appear.

(i) Behind that appearance is nothing but the power to create.

(j) What you observe is what you have put there in the first place.

(k) You forget that it is what you “thought up” in the first place, so you can regard it as something else, and thus make it persist and enjoy it.

(l) You are not a thing. You are the creator of things.

(m) Body is something created. You can observe the body. You are not this body.

(n) Mind is something created. You can observe the mind. You are not this mind.

(o) You are THAT which is aware of being aware.

(p) You are the creator.

.
.
.
Communication is the universal solvent.
_________________________
.
.
.
Communication is the universal solvent.

Top
#23281 - 07/06/01 03:59 AM Re: Buddha's Teachings [Re: vinaire]
Vaman Offline
member
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Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 360
// Suffering can be ended by overcoming ignorance and attachment.//
Vinaire’s attempts at a Vedantic interpretation of the Buddhas words are commend'able...
but the truth is......That
First Buddha posits suffering and having defined this very life as the core...furnace of suffering ...he devices a way out...what is the way out...Nirvana...Termination of all life instincts.
Why....Because otherwise how will he fool "Happy individuals with healthy instincts" into believing that all that they consider as good...leading to happiness here and now...that is all noble instincts that affirm life and establish their well being with strong family values... are in actuality a bundle of curses ( Karmas) evolving itself from some past birth and fooling them in the present in believing that they are pursuing happiness.
he inverts every thing that was considered indispensable for strong and competitive life and replaces it with his famous formula of palayanvada.....
To the father he says..your son really doesnt care about you....to the son natural sexual instincts he says...you long for a body full of puss and excrete ment...and he carries this on mingled now and then with some borrowed ethical and humanistic statements so that the clients attention is forever is in his grip .
and then he does the inevitable...He falsify's all that life has till then stood for...Noble values. Aryan Values, noble aspiration, The survival of the higher- life affirming instincts. all replaced by nihilistic instincts.
The great Bheeshma's, arjunas, Bhimas, Rama of Post buddha India. Takes up the begging bowl and wander street to streets...thinking Now I have got nirvana.. Now I have got it, etc etc


the damage was irrreversable....
"and all done with a book of ethical quotations."

- Vamana

"what is truth and who is a hindu are two seperate issues.
How can a hindu realize truth another....."
_________________________
"between two thought in that silence be."

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