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DurgaDas
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Reged: 12/14/05
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Posts: 139
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It is very easy to see that scripture has been the major cause of religeous strife in the world. Some points to note:
1. Most scriptures label themselves as the "only" truth and call the others "false".
2. Scriptures are often interpreted properly, and yet convey different ideas.
3. Scriptures are often misinterpreted to divide people.
4. Frequently, people call people within their own religion as heretics, unorthodox, unvedic etc based on different interpretations of scripture.
5. If a vast religion like Hinduism depends on many scriptures. there is a frequent tendency to classify a group of texts as orthodox and the rest as heretic or false. Who decides this? Majority vote?
The question, is, if there is a God, he should be attainable with mere devotion, faith and sincereity of purpose. Why have so many scriptures that clash with each other, make people clash with each other, kill each other, and abuse each other?
What is the scripture intended to teach us? And what has it effectively acheieved? What happens if we ditch all existing scriptures and seek truth in our own way? What qualifications does one need for that?
I have definitely read this quote in one of the works of a famous Acharya of the past=
"Taking into account all Hindu scripture, and reconciling all passages, the only fact that can be said with 100% sureity is that if you pray with devotion to Krishna, and seek knoweldge and grace through him, you attain salvation.
There is absolutely no need to discuss, debate, argue over the right philosophy, the right method of worship, the goal or state of mukti. These have no significance in atainment of the goal itself.
I forgot who mentioned this. You dont have to know how a medicine works to cure the illness - you simply swallow the pill.
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sarabhanga
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Reged: 08/02/02
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Namaste Durgadas,
Religion was originally a personal matter of correct “selection” or “perception” of Truth. Over time, however, the various selections made by some inspired members of different cultural groups have become “set in stone” for those groups, and subsequently their particular cultural version of “religion” or Dharma has been presented more dogmatically.
The Vedas were originally passed by learned Brahmanas from generation to generation only by direct speech and were never actually written down, and this process has been continuous over millennia.
At some point, the written code of Brahmi (and later Sanskrit) was established, and the Vedas were fixed in writing for the very first time.
The production of actual scripture (the written word as opposed to the spoken word) is perhaps the main reason for the historical change in the perceived nature of religion (from wise choice to veritable bondage) which has tended to occur in all the established faiths.
The major scriptures of each religion do contain the distilled essence of thousands of years of combined philosophical (truth seeking) activity, and it is not wise to just throw that remarkable spiritual heritage away.
Islam is the only major religion that was absolutely fixed in writing from its very inception, and most Judeo-Christian sects rely entirely on texts that were fairly rapidly fixed ~ and dogmatism is one of their hallmarks.
The Bible became fixed in Latin translation, and then re-fixed in English translation, and thence into every language on earth; but this has all happened in the absence of any living Guru, since the Prophet who presented the original words (in Aramaic) was executed (or at least disappeared) and his devotees declared that there can never be another teacher who is actually one with God.
For Hindus, however, the purity of an eternal and yet living Word of God is available in the mantras and shlokas transmitted and explained by wise Gurus; and there remains the possibility of fine-tuning the Vidya (without altering its essence) for individual circumstances.
It is the long experience and deep consideration of a wise Guru that makes his/her advice valuable (indeed priceless), and it is foolish to throw away that knowledge and insight for the sole reason of personal pride.
The revealed scripture, the wise teacher’s transmission, and the aspirant’s own heart, must all three be brought together as the essential components of a true Religion. And indeed that is exactly what one finds in traditional Sanatana Dharma.
If all scripture was destroyed, and the influence that all of that scripture has had on human thinking were to be removed, then I wonder how long it would actually take for most humans to even come up with the idea of monotheism, let alone consistently effective methods for realizing unity with that one God.
The key to the reconciliation of Shaiva vs Vaishnava and Advaita vs Dvaita (and even Guru vs Guru) is truly found in Lord Krishna and the Bhagavadgita.
-------------------- Sarabhanga Giri ~ Ayamatma Brahma
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DurgaDas
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Namaste Sarabhanga,
I did not mean "destroying" in a literal sense, but what happens if there is a mini pralaya? Do we loose all direction? How long will it take for people to realize the value of spiritual realization if religion is completely lost?
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If all scripture was destroyed, and the influence that all of that scripture has had on human thinking were to be removed, then I wonder how long it would actually take for most humans to even come up with the idea of monotheism, let alone consistently effective methods for realizing unity with that one God.
In my personal opinion, it may not take long for a few people to start realizing the wisdom presented in the Upanishads, because of the divinity already present in man. Man is always seeking the answer to who he is through science and religion, so such a fundamental question is bound to come up again, with or without scripture. Also, we beleive that if there is a decline of Dharm in the world by the lack of religeous values, God himself will set it right.
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sarabhanga
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Namaste Durgadas,
Quote:
If all scripture was destroyed, and the influence that all of that scripture has had on human thinking were to be removed, then I wonder how long it would actually take for most humans to even come up with the idea of monotheism, let alone consistently effective methods for realizing unity with that one God.
So long as some seed remains to re-generate the Veda it will surely return.
In the Mahabharata [3 (33) 83], Pulastya describes Tirthayatra in the Dandakaranya and adjacent Tungakaranya: Repairing to the Dandakaranya and touching the water, there is the reward of a thousand cows from just bathing. [83.38] If one goes to the Ashrams of Sarabhanga and the great-spirited Sukra, he suffers no reverses and purifies his family. [83.39] After bathing at the [upper] Saptagodavara, restrained and of meagre diet, he wins great merit and goes to Brahmaloka. [83.41] Then he should go to Suraparaka, which was visited by Jamadagnya, and bathe at Ramatirtha: he will find much gold. [83.40] Reaching the Tungakaranya (Tunga Forest), chaste and master of his senses ~ there Sarasvata Rsi of old taught the Vedas, and the lost Vedas were taught again by the son of the hermit Angiras, seated on the upper garments of the Rsis: when someone correctly enunciated the syllable OM according to the rules, the lore that he had previously rehearsed came back to him. [83.43-45] Now when one enters that Tungakaranya, man or woman, all one's evil disappears. [83.50]
See also: Rememberence of the Rishis. In Spiral Yatra. OM.
And I am sure you agree that there is no good reason to hasten the corruption of both Dharma and humanity for the sole reason of speeding the return of God’s correcting hand.
-------------------- Sarabhanga Giri ~ Ayamatma Brahma
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Quote:
Namaste Sarabhanga,
I did not mean "destroying" in a literal sense, but what happens if there is a mini pralaya? Do we loose all direction? How long will it take for people to realize the value of spiritual realization if religion is completely lost?
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If all scripture was destroyed, and the influence that all of that scripture has had on human thinking were to be removed, then I wonder how long it would actually take for most humans to even come up with the idea of monotheism, let alone consistently effective methods for realizing unity with that one God.
In my personal opinion, it may not take long for a few people to start realizing the wisdom presented in the Upanishads, because of the divinity already present in man. Man is always seeking the answer to who he is through science and religion, so such a fundamental question is bound to come up again, with or without scripture. Also, we beleive that if there is a decline of Dharm in the world by the lack of religeous values, God himself will set it right.
Never. Such an attitude that the ekantik Bhagwat Dharm is within reach of mental speculation of man is foolish. The shastras are there as the guidance for our soul, the saints are there as teachers, who got their knowledge from the sacred scriptures. They cannot be replaced in any way. Did you not think that if there was a better alternative, God would not do it?
I don't mean to belittle you, but instead attack the idea that man's mental speculation is of the same authority as the scriptures. That mode of thinking leads one to hell. This same disregard for scriptures is what led to appearance of other faiths such as Abrahamic faiths, and Jainism, Buddhism. I believe the sacred Bhagwat Puran states this same thing.
This "inherent divinity" you speak of is our atma, where Paramatma Purushottam also resides. It is not accessible like a body part, or the buddhi, and is instead a witness to our antahkaran and gross body composed of panchbhuta. Therefore it is not something we can consult for wisdom. Our mind, which is what we use to speculate is polluted with illusion, and is not directly of a divine nature.
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DurgaDas
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Quote:
Never. Such an attitude that the ekantik Bhagwat Dharm is within reach of mental speculation of man is foolish. The shastras are there as the guidance for our soul, the saints are there as teachers, who got their knowledge from the sacred scriptures. They cannot be replaced in any way. Did you not think that if there was a better alternative, God would not do it?
I don't mean to belittle you, but instead attack the idea that man's mental speculation is of the same authority as the scriptures. That mode of thinking leads one to hell. This same disregard for scriptures is what led to appearance of other faiths such as Abrahamic faiths, and Jainism, Buddhism. I believe the sacred Bhagwat Puran states this same thing.
This "inherent divinity" you speak of is our atma, where Paramatma Purushottam also resides. It is not accessible like a body part, or the buddhi, and is instead a witness to our antahkaran and gross body composed of panchbhuta. Therefore it is not something we can consult for wisdom. Our mind, which is what we use to speculate is polluted with illusion, and is not directly of a divine nature.
Not much difference between a Christian and you, who cant avoid bringing a hell here. Rest of your stuff has nothing to do with general Hindu Philosophy - just a personal Vaishnavite view of yours. 
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No what he said aint so wrong - one's skeptic mentality wont bring you any bliss....
As for the divinity part, the fact that men attain divinity out of struggle - can be an indirect evidence to the already-present divinity. Declaring yourself a slave to lord isn't gonna help
-------------------- No im not a girl
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DurgaDas
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I was not objecting to what he said except for this.
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I don't mean to belittle you, but instead attack the idea that man's mental speculation is of the same authority as the scriptures. That mode of thinking leads one to hell.
It is quite surprising that some Hindus are slaves to scripture and their own interpretations of it. There should be emphasis on devotion, action and also meditation( mental speculation or enquiry). Any talk of the introspection or the direct seek of the truth is viewed by some Hindus as taboo. And such people are condemned to the hell.
Declaring onself a slave to Lord is very useful as a concept as it helps to withdraw the lower ego. But that is not the end of all, or atleast one should not assume that those who dont do so are wrong. Follow your own instincts would be a better way for everyone.
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winsome
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Quote:
It is quite surprising that some Hindus are slaves to scripture and their own interpretations of it.
It is not quite surprising that some are slaves to their personal opinions and claim it as the only truth. Usually happens when one thinks no end of their own dogmas as the truth rather than believing in what the rishis said. It is not quite surprising that the result is several individual philosophies in India, borne out of each individual interpreting the truth in the way he/she likes to view it.
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There should be emphasis on devotion, action and also meditation( mental speculation or enquiry).
The emphasis to devotion action and meditation is not a new thing. This emphasis was first introduced by our scriptures which Hinduism is based upon.
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Any talk of the introspection or the direct seek of the truth is viewed by some Hindus as taboo. And such people are condemned to the hell.
Declaring onself a slave to Lord is very useful as a concept as it helps to withdraw the lower ego. But that is not the end of all, or atleast one should not assume that those who dont do so are wrong. Follow your own instincts would be a better way for everyone.
A person on drugs/alcohol may experience what he calls as bliss. In fact there are spiritualists who think they experienced almighty bliss after getting intoxicated or in a coma state. Can we accept their experience as truth ? Why, a normal composed person in appearance (we see that with several new age gurus nowadays) claims he/she saw or became God. Will you believe his/her opinion to be the truth ?
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DurgaDas
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Quote:
It is not quite surprising that some are slaves to their personal opinions and claim it as the only truth. Usually happens when one thinks no end of their own dogmas as the truth rather than believing in what the rishis said. It is not quite surprising that the result is several individual philosophies in India, borne out of each individual interpreting the truth in the way he/she likes to view it.
Who is slave to his own interpretation? Not me! Nor do I think any of you are correct and infallible. That is the slavish attitute I am referring to. I am always right, you are always wrong - is the slavish attitue. Let us set aside dogma, that is my attitude.
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The emphasis to devotion action and meditation is not a new thing. This emphasis was first introduced by our scriptures which Hinduism is based upon.
Not just by Hinduism, is my point.
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A person on drugs/alcohol may experience what he calls as bliss. In fact there are spiritualists who think they experienced almighty bliss after getting intoxicated or in a coma state. Can we accept their experience as truth ? Why, a normal composed person in appearance (we see that with several new age gurus nowadays) claims he/she saw or became God. Will you believe his/her opinion to be the truth ?
But who told you I would beleive so? Infact, I would certainly examine the credentials of any person who claims any such experience - to beyond his scriptural knowledge or gimmicks, which dogmatic people are not likely to.
I remember you as a Dvaitin, and I would suggest you to explain how you think that your beleif is true. Shou;dn't you first be thorough with your system and all other systems and the whole of scripture, along with complete mastery in sanskrit language. Please tell us how some people have decided the truth of their own claims just based on their blind beleifs. One should have either
1) personal verification of the truth.( God realization) 2) Mastery of the scripture and all interpretations of it to judge what the purport of the scripture is.
In the absence of either 1) or 2), how is a person supposed to assume the truth of his beleifs, apart from a blind beleif in the words of his guru?
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