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Mughal
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I have found an interesting passage in one of Tipitaka suttas:
[5] "Furthermore... just as a skilled butcher or his apprentice, having killed a cow, would sit at a crossroads cutting it up into pieces, the monk contemplates this very body -- however it stands, however it is disposed -- in terms of properties: 'In this body there is the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, & the wind property.'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html
The fact that Budha(who as many know was a proponent of ahimsa) mentions the slaughter of cow in such context, as a simple simile to illustrate monk meditative practice - could only mean (1) that in Buddha's time such slaughter should have been a routine thing - unusual things are not used for similes (2) people were not to much indignated about the cow slaughter.- if they were expected to get indignated, Buddha would have not used a simile which could distract from the topic and rouse negative emotions.
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ashegan
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the religion of buddha's time was a total and gross perversion of the vedic dharma that preceded it, and brahmans thoroughly corrupted the karmakanda to introduce the slaughter of animals.. and ironically they tried to use ved to defend their evil ways.. for example, in ved we read of gomedha which means agriculture, restraint of the senses as per shatapatha brahmana etc and they took it to mean 'cow-sacrifice'.. same thing happened with ashvamedh and narmedh.. i would not be surprised if some in buddha's age were debauched enough to offer the cow as a sacrifice, though i really doubt it..
ashegan pillai
-------------------- ashegan pillai
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Mughal
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Even if I know just a couple of words in Sanskrit, nevertheless I know that "go" means "cow" and "medha" means "sacrifice". So that I cannot imagine what else "gomedha" could mean as "cow sacrifice". "ashwa" also undoubtedly means "horse".
If you think that "gomedha" does not means "cow sacrifice" how you etynologize this word?
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ashegan
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mughal, you are making the same mistake the westerners made and the latter-day puranics... people had forgotten about dhaatupaathas etc and words of ved only came to understood in one term which often completely distorted the meaning of the verses...
in chaandas, 'go' means earth, cow, the senses, food etc. depending on the context... it is cognate with greek 'ge' (note: greek goddess of the earth is gaia from this root) and it is interesting that the zarathustris have the same term as gomedha, only as geush urva.. and according to avesta it means agriculture, tilling the soil, which was considered an act of worship and honour to the almighty (one meaning of arya is from ar- to cultivate etc - ie. a productive human being)..it is the same in ved..
we read in shatapatha brahmana (IV, iii, 1, 26): 'to keep food pure, to keep the senses under control, to make good use of the rays of the sun, or to keep the earth free fom impurities, this is called gomedha'
like all vedic words, 'go' has an adibhautik and adhyatmik sense ie. it means the ploughing of land for agriculture, and it is control of one's senses... in rig ved, it is written that the wise 'have cut the 'cow' (go) and made fertile the earth' - obviously this refers to the cultivation of the soil, which was enjoined in aryan culture even as a religious duty... i cannot even begin to say how much medha can refer to besides 'sacrifice' which is a rather gross translation anyway... it can mean wisdom, talent etc...
association of earth and cow go back a long time because the words for both were similar.. even in bhagwat puraan and in persian tradition, the soul of the earth took form as a cow to plead with vishnu, or ahur mazd... it is saddening for hindu dharma that these words got confounded and a clouded buddhi could not discern their meaning... besides, in ved the cow is called 'aghanya' - never to be killed...
as for ashwamedh, that was entirely distorted and came to involve sacrificing a horse(extremely corrupt practise by vama margis)! do you believe that or the authority of the rshis, who say in shatapatha brahmana (XIII, i,6,3): 'a king governs his people justly and righteously. this is ashwamedha' 'a learned man gives a free gift of knowledge to the people. this is ashwamedha' 'the burning of ghee (clarified butter), sweet-smelling subtances and grain into the fire (to purify the air). this is ashwamedha'
how much clearer than that can we get? nowhere in the ved or the shastras is it written that a man must kill a horse and burn it in the fire... horse and cow are revered in ved as symbols for the animal kingdom and ishwar NEVER asks for blood sacrifice from his worshippers.. what is the use of offering something that already is god's, back to god himself.. its like giving a slain child back to its mother.. senseless..
as for the quote yo got about buddha, it is possible that goat or something else could have also been implied.. it depends on the translation.. btw buddha is said to have died when he was offered a plate of pork that had gone bad...
ashegan pillai
-------------------- ashegan pillai
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vinaire
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This is a good research. I learnt something from it.
. . . Communication is the universal solvent.
-------------------- . . . Communication is the universal solvent.
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I think that Mr. Mughal alias Mr. Kondratas has misunderstood the Buddhist text. If you read the entire section, it is actually written with a view to generate a feeling of revulsion or triviality with respect to one's body in the mind of a monk. This methodolgy is not unique to Buddhism and is encountered in other Hindu texts as well. And this is why he draws the similie of the cow. Bhagwan Buddha is trying to say that just as the hallowed mortal frame of the cow is dismembered completely by a butcher, so also one's own body which is so dear to oneself, eventually gets dismembered/distingerated into its material constituents. The metaphor of butchery by the cow is a beautiful similie and achieves its purpose (i.e., create a revulsion for one's mortal frame) effectively.
To add what Ashegan has stated, the compound 'gomedha' does not mean 'cow slaughter' just as the term 'grihamedha' (Kathaka Samhita 36.1 etc.) does not mean the destruction of one's griha (viz. house) and the term 'Pitrmedha' does not mean killing one's fathers and other elders.
The cow in the Vedas is associated with profound symbolism, a description of which is found in the following book:
Doris Srinivasan; Concept of Cow in the Rigveda; Motilal Bararsidass; New Delhi; 1979
According to the Vedic dictionary (see reference below), the word 'go' has the following meaninings in the Vedic texts: 1. Cow 2. Bull, ox 3. Milch cow 4. Stars 5. rays 6. sparks of fire 7. earth 8. dawn 9. milk or butter 10. Soma 11. rain clouds 12. sinews
The word 'medha' has the following meanings according to this dictionary and also the Brahmana texts 1. Yajna 2. Lance shaft 3. Essence 4. Meat 5. water 6. melted butter
So, your view is incorrect and one-sided.
References:
1. Suryakanta; A Pracical Vedic Dictionary; The Oxford University Press; 1981 2. Vishva Bandhu et al; Brahmanoddhara Kosha; VVRI; Hoshiarpur; 1966
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It is interesting to note that the cow used to be slaughtered by the ancient Hindus to enjoy its beef, entertain the guests and offer it as sacrifice to their deities. [Mahatma] Gandhi himself says, "I know there are scholars who tell us that cow-sacrifice is mentioned in the Vedas. I... read a sentence in our Sanskrit text-book to the effect that Brahmins of old [period] used to eat beef" [M.K. Gandhi, Hindu Dharma, New Delhi, 1991, p. 120]. He, however, refrained from showing enough courage in clearly speaking the truth, may be because he did not like to hurt the sentiments of the people who were the main source of his political strength. There are clear evidences in the Rig Veda, the most sacred Hindu scripture, that the cow used to be sacrificed by Hindus for religious purposes. For instance, Hymn CLXIX of the Rig Veda says: "May the wind blow upon our cows with healing; may they eat herbage ... Like-coloured various-hued or single-coloured whose names through sacrifice are known to Agni, Whom the Angirases produced by Ferbvour - vouschsafe to these, Parjanya, great.protection. Those who have offered to the gods their bodies whose varied forms are all well known to Soma" [The Rig Veda (RV), translated by Ralph H. Griffith, New York, 1992, p. 647]. In the Rig Veda (RV: VIII.43.11) Agni is described as "fed on ox and cow" suggesting that cattle were sacrificed and roasted in fire. Another hymn (RV: X.16.7) mentions the ritual enveloping of the corpse with cow flesh before applying the fire on it. In the Brahmanas at 1.15 in the Aiteriya Brahmana, the kindling of Agni on the arrival of King Some is compared to the slaughter of a bull or a barren cow on the arrival of a human king or other dignitary. Similarly, at II.1.11.1 in the Taiteriya Brahmana and XXXI.14.5 in the Panchavinsha Brahmana, the rishi Agastya is credited with the slaughter of a hundred bulls. In verse III.1.2.21 in the Satapatha Brahmana, sage Yajnavalkaya asserts that even though the cow is the supporter of everyone, he would eat beef "if it is luscious." At IV.5-2.1 in the same Brahmana, it is said that a barren cow can be slaughtered in the some sacrifice. Not only for religious purposes, but also for other purposes one could kill a cow and eat beef. Thus at II.4.2 of the same Brahmana, it is suggested that a fat bull or fat goat should be sacrificed in honour of an important guest. Similarly, the Brihadaranyaka Upanishada (VI.4.18) advises a couple to take an evening meal of beef or veal pulao, if they desire to beget a son who is learned in the Vedas [Robert Trumbull, As I see India, London, 1957, p.241].
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vinaire
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What is the agenda behind your monologue, my friend?
Are you making yourself right by nit-picking others? You must have been made quite wrong in the past.
So ancient Hindus ate beef. And then Hindus stopped eating beef. So, what is the big deal about it?
I don't get your point except that you are down on Hinduism in a general sense. You are filtering out all that is good to zero in on what you think is bad. This is a very biased and immature treatment of a subject.
If you want to discuss something then please respond.
. . . Communication is the universal solvent.
-------------------- . . . Communication is the universal solvent.
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VJR
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FYI Thai Buddhists eat barbequed RATS! i saw that on one of the shows on discovery channel.
Anyway, to answer your question about cows and Fat Buddha: India was invaded by Greek meat eating, esp beef gobbling Alexander et al in 320BC or so. And then by Farsi speaking Iranians or Zorasterian people from 512 BC. Moghuls started to come into India by 6th century. Buddha was almost about to exit India if I am right by 7th century. So, it is possible that Buddha might have mentioned about cows being slaughtered etc in his work.
You conveniently forgot to mention about those infidel invaders who came into India w that food habit.
What is the point of Buddha mentioning it? All buddhists that I know, including some foreign monks eat all kinds of meat products. China and other oriental countries that follow Buddhism eat all most anything that moves! LOL:) But Greek invaded
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chakravartym
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Re: Sathyadevan
You have unfortunately touched a wound and that too in the medical sense of expression of one that is chronic and ulcerous.
What I can gather is the following. If anyone is in any way a threat to a generally accepted consensus and has even a remote possibility of transforming them even if through evidence, it is unacceptable. It would be interesting to note that for us who use this forum and therefore are deemed literate in the sense that we can read and write, it is not a general phenomenon to have a statesman-like approach to critical issues and appear to reject outright anything that comes even close to hurting us personally. If this be the case of the literary mass, then one can well imagine the plight of the illeterate and ignorant mass of our country who probably have no hope. This is akin to the expression, "When elephants fight, the grass dies".
There is enough evidence in literature that consumption of flesh was a practice including that of cattle. With special reference to the cow, in addition to what you have stated, ther are several more.
The question therefore is not whether this was indeed a practice, but why this was stopped and its subsequent practice incurred such abhorrence.
If we look at the time-frame of the Vedas, cattle were routinely offered as sacrificial objects too pompously and vigorously to allow the existence of a healthy and functional breed of animals and this practice was therefore slowly and systematically discouraged. What hastened this process with rather lightning speed was the relentless hatred towards the later invaders who were both cattle consumers. Historically, no generous sentiment could continue as generous and no emotion continue to be human once it was overwhelmed by the Hindu xenophobia. Let us face it, the extreme hatred towards the cattle killing invaders (there is enough of it already in this website) has been far greater than the reverence and love towards the animals themselves. The despicable and negligent state of care for our cattle on our roads and streets only too conspicuously exhibits it. From a moral perspective, it's a rather repulsive form of hypocrisy to worship cows while simultaneously starving them.
It is a well known fact that even as of today, animal sacrifice is routinely performed by devotees of Kali (an incarnation of Durga) in several states of the country, by offering an unblemished goat or buffalo that is publicly slaughtered by the single fell of the scimitar amid great reverence and gusto. Animal sacrifice is routinely practiced in Nepal, the only Hindu state in the world.
This is the diversity of the religion that has evolutionized over the centuries. A confrontation with its multitudinous features will reveal a mental world which will have a shattering effect on the intellectual faculties and quite a few would not appear to conform to logic. The more one studies the details the more one gets bewildered. To quote a single though appropriate example, after reading the Kathopanishad with a moderate degree in depth, one who does not impose ones own fancies on it and supplant it with a connecting thread out of ones imagination, will find the eyes to be dazzled by sparks of light not enough to light the room. To read the older Upanishads is still more puzzling. Even to read the Gita which has a distinct and powerful message, leaves an impression of inconsistency since it contains many references that do not merge with the central theme. And this is only in relation to the later scriptures. Such is the magnitude of diversity of this faith where in every nook and corner of the country that one may explore one shall find amazing cults and practices, each one with an attached sense of exclusive divinity than the other. One would find the mystic naga sadhu with a steel ring piercing his genitals to a commoner who worships the serpent in its live form. One could go on an on and in each one of these instances will one find a devout Hindu. In essence, any perceivable concoction of expression or practice of religiosity is good enough for one to proclaim oneself a Hindu. And it is this reality that we see expressed among Hindus! What could be the scope of the scotomic views of idolatry, worship in temples and veneration of the cow that represent not even a miniscule of the quantum of practices in general to prioritize them. One will find in this day and age wherein a segment of the most qualified among us prefer to ordain a living human as a God and pray to him and even refer to him as Bhagavan. Such living Gods are now institutions. Are these in line with either Vedic principles or the Upanishads or could the devotion of such devotees be questioned. They are all a part of the continuum of the faith at least in its present evolutioned form. I have asked innumerable number of people the question of 'What is it that makes you a Hindu' and I have yet to find a consistently valid response to it. To quote Sir Alfred Lyall in his account in the Fortnightly Review of February 1872, he provides a list of articles of worship at the time:
1. The worship of mere stocks and stones and of local configurations, which are unusual or grosteque in size, shape and position. (worship of the Shiva-linga and the Narayan Shila is done even now) 2. The worship of things inanimate, which are gifted with mysterious motion. 3. The worship of animals which are feared (not just the cow) 4. The worship of visible things animate or inanimate, which are directly or indirectly useful and profitable, or which possess any incomprehensible function or property. (worship of a tree, a stambha etc. or even a house of a deceased) 5. The worship of DEO or spirit, a thing without form and void, the vague impersonation of the uncanny sensation that comes over one at certain places (seen quite often among ladies who apparently go into a trance while praying). 6. The worship of dead relatives, and other deceased persons known in their lifetime to the worshippers. 7. The worship at shrines of persons who had great reputation during life, or who died in some strange or notorious way (this form is routinely observed in relation to the shrines of our departed political leaders) 8. The worship in temples of persons belonging to the foregoing class, as demigods or subordinate deities (we have quite a few of such temples that draw a substantial following) 9. The worship of the manifold local incarnations of the elder deities and of their symbols (quite regularly we see temples of particular deities which also display several others and one offers oblations to all of them) 10. The worship of departmental deities. 11. The worship of the supreme Gods of Hinduism, and of their ancient incarnations and personifications, handed down by the Brahmanic scriptures.
All of the above inherent diversities and variations have created the emergence of a myriad number of so-called religious leaders, each with his or her own way of the path to salvation. One may argue that logic, reasoning and religion are incompatible and therefore should not be mixed and I value that assumption. But to presume and that too with the conviction that any one form of practice or its annulment is the essence of this faith and superior to any other, is unfortunate and impractical.
The manifest diversity of our religion has been at the very centre of interest among the Europeans in general and a few of them have gone to great lengths to become scholars of Sanskrit and it is through their collective enquiry that we, the priviledged few, are able to understand most of our scriptures in general. Very few among us would possess the capability to understand the scriptures if not to explain what they really might mean. Hence, in our general expression in handicap we need to broaden our approach towards the faith and cast aside features which are rather scruples and focus on the spiritual dimension predominantly as this is possibly the only exclusive ingredient of our faith (even though post-vedic) that towers over the collective mass of all the other faiths and would surely find acceptance among all. There will be no need to either be apologetic or go on the defensive for this remarkable aproach while the others would need quite substantial degrees of justification in order to motivate people and hold them together by a common thread. Such a moral transformation appears to be the panacea to the general ignorance and widespread corruption and presents a desirable and possible unifying factor for this country under the glory of this remarkable religion.
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